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  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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1

Tuesday, September 16th 2008, 2:58pm

Heinrich Henry Woltmann Seefahrer

Hello,

Please forgive my ignorance, I know very little, if any German, but I am hoping that the kind people on this forum can help.

My name is Steven Derbyshire, I was born and still live in Liverpool, UK, I’m trying to find the birthplace or any information on my Great Grandfather.

The only information I have is from the marriage certificate from when he married my Great Grandmother Annie Carter in 1878, His name was HENRY WOLTMAN, his occupation was mariner, he was born in Germany around 1854, his father was HENRY WOLTMAN and his occupation was master mariner.

My Great Grandfather settled in Liverpool for the rest of his life, he died in 1932....

I know there is not a lot of information, I am just hoping that somebody on this forum can help, Thank you.

Regards,

Steven


Moderator-Übersetzung/Translation:
Hallo,

Bitte vergebt mir meine Unwissenheit, ich weiss sehr wenig deutsch, aber ich hoffe, dass die nette Leute auf diesem Forum mir helfen können.

Meinn Name ist Steven Derbyshire, ich wurde in Liverpool, UK geboren, und wohne noch dort. Ich versuche das Geburtsort meine Urgrossvaters zu finden, oder überhaupt irgendwelche Information über ihn.

Die einzige Information, die ich habe, ist von seiner Heiratsurkunde von der Ehe mit meinem Urgrossmutter in 1878. Sein Name war HENRY WOLTMAN, sein Beruf war Matrose/Seeman (
mariner), er wurde in Deutschland ca. 1845 geboren.. Sein Vater war HENRY WOLTMAN und sein Beruf war Meister Seeman (master mariner.)

Nein Urgrossvater liess sich in Liverpool nieder, und wihnte sein restliches Leben dort. Er starb in 1932....

Ich weiss, es nicht viel Information, ich hoffe blos, dass jemand hier im Forum mir helfen kann Danke schön .

Gruß,
Steven

rotraud

Moderatorin

Location: Münsterland

Societies: WGGF

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2

Tuesday, September 16th 2008, 3:43pm

Hi Steven and welcome to this forum! You are right, it's a lot of information missing, if you don't know the town or even the region you HENRY WOLTMAN comes from. The name is not rare. Do you know the company he worked for? Are there any hire books left? Things like this might be helpful to figure out, where the Woltmans lived.

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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3

Thursday, September 18th 2008, 5:27pm

Thank you


Thanks for the welcome Rotraud, and thanks for the reply,

Yes, the information I have is very vague...it was a vain attempt to see If a member of this prestigious forum possibly had a Henry Woltman that settled in Liverpool in their family tree?

Rotraud,

In Britain If you are a Master Mariner this means you are qualified to captain a ship, it means you have gained a Certificate of Competency to state that you are qualified, these certificates are held at Lloyd's Captains' Registers, Where would they be kept in Germany?, I'm wondering If I could trace my Great, Great Grandfather Henry Woltman...

Many Thanks,

Steven

rotraud

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Location: Münsterland

Societies: WGGF

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4

Thursday, September 18th 2008, 6:11pm

I am sure the ship companies have registrated these persons. You should open a special thread: "Henry Woltman, Master Mariner from Germany " or something like that. You could place it in the section
Niedersachsen, Hamburg und Bremenbecause most persons working on ships came from these regions where the great ports are. I think, the grade could be "Maat" in German, but I don't know much about these things.


Location: Magdeburg, jetzt Kaltenengers

Societies: AMF

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5

Thursday, September 18th 2008, 8:24pm

Hello Steven,

do you know this site ? Perhaps they can help you to get more informations.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-33450.pdf

Best regards
Peggy
Alles zerfällt zu Nichts, wird alt und stirbt und findet sein Ende.
Menschen sterben, Eisen rostet, Holz verfault, Türme stürzen ein, Mauern zerbröckeln, Rosen verwelken.
Auch Namen haben keinen Bestand über das Grab hinaus. Es sei denn, sie scheinen in den Büchern eines Gelehrten.
Es ist die Feder, die den Menschen Unsterblichkeit verleiht.

Master Wace - Roman de Rou

www.ahnenforschung-sachsen-anhalt.de

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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6

Tuesday, September 23rd 2008, 4:48pm

I am sure the ship companies have registrated these persons. You should open a special thread: "Henry Woltman, Master Mariner from Germany " or something like that. You could place it in the section
Niedersachsen, Hamburg und Bremenbecause most persons working on ships came from these regions where the great ports are. I think, the grade could be "Maat" in German, but I don't know much about these things.





Thanks Rotraud,

I will start another thread in the forum that you suggest but I was thinking of using

Henry WOLTMAN, Meister Seemann (Kapitän) born in Germany about 1830

As the heading, does it make sense?

Thanks,
Steven

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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7

Tuesday, September 23rd 2008, 4:50pm

Quoted


Hello Steven,

do you know this site ? Perhaps they can help you to get more informations.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-33450.pdf

Best regards
Peggy

Thanks Peggy,

I will try what you suggest...

Steven

rotraud

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Location: Münsterland

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8

Tuesday, September 23rd 2008, 4:55pm

Yes, that would be a good header. Good luck.

Maternus

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Location: Berlin

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9

Tuesday, September 23rd 2008, 7:47pm

Hello Steven,

welcome here!!!

Ich schreibe in deutsch weiter, aber Bob wird Dir helfen bei der Übersetzung! (Danke Bob!!!)

Wenn Dein Ahne Kapitän war und vorher einfacher Matrose, dann versuche zu erforschen auf welchem Schiff er gedient hat!
Z.B., war es ein Handelsschiff oder ein Schiff der Marine oder ein Personenbeförderungsschiff.
Wenn Du das Schiff gefunden hast, mußt Du herausfinden zu welcher Reederei das Schiff gehörte und ob es diese Reederei noch gibt.

Ich finde das ja spannend....einen Seemann!

Wenn Du gefunden hast wo er als Kapitän und vorher als Matrose gedient hat und die Reederei gibt es noch,...dann würde ich versuchen das original Logbuch zu lesen und mir die Handschrift ansehen!
Meistens findet man in den Personalakten (soweit sie noch vorhanden sind) die genauen Angaben wann geboren und wo und vielleicht der letzte Wohnsitz in Deutschland.

Das soll nur ein Gedanke sein, aber es gibt ja noch andere Hinweise!

Viel Spaß bei Deiner Forschung und viel Erfolg!!!

LG Doreen

Moderator-Übersetzung/Translation:
As your ancestor was a captain and before that a mariner, try researching which ship he served on.
e.g. was it a merchant ship or or a navy sip or a passenger ship.
Wehn you have found the ship, you can then find out who it belonged to and whether the company still exists.

I find it exciting .... a mariner !

When you have found out on which ships he served, and if the shipping company still exists, then I would try to read the original logbooks and see his handwriting.
Usually you can find all sorts of personal details in the employment files (if they still exist): when and where he was born, and maybe his last place of residence in Germany.

Just a few ideas, there will be other tips !

I wish you much fun with your research, and lots of success !!!
Regards,
Doreen
"Wissen ist Macht" (Heinrich Barth März 1850)
Nüscht wissn, macht aba ooch nüscht! (der Berliner)
Je mehr man weiß, desto weniger weiß man nichts! (Ich)

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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10

Wednesday, September 24th 2008, 12:13pm

Doreen,

Thank you very much for your reply and your advice, I'm sure that my ancestor was a merchant seaman, But I have no idea which ships he served on...


Doreen can I ask was HENRY WOLTMAN a popular German name in the 19th century?, my feeling is that my Grandfather called himself HENRY to make himself sound more English, what do you think



Once again, thank you very much

Steven

Maternus

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Location: Berlin

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11

Thursday, September 25th 2008, 9:45pm

Thank you Bob for this translation!!!

Hello Steven,

your Grandfather speak good english...naja, er mußte (wollte) sich vielleicht anpassen...?

Woher weißt Du denn das Dein Großvater Matrose und sein Vater Kapitän war?
Das ist wichtig um heraus zu finden auf welchem Schiff er war!

1. Hast Du Fotos wo man erkennen kann das er Kapitän war oder Matrose?
2. Hast Du Papiere...Matrosen bekamen "die Heuer"...das war der Lohn für Matrosen!...
3. Wenn sein Vater ein Kapitän war, dann müßte das in den Akten des Sohnen doch erscheinen.

Also versuche anhand von "ungefähren" Jahreszahlen zu ergründen welches Schiff in England vor Anker ging in Liverpool beim Uropa und beim Opa...man muß da etwas mit den Jahren spielen, da man ja weiß das eine Ausbildung zum Seemann also Matrosen etwa 3-5 Jahre dauerte, je nach Geschick des Jungen der ausgebildet wurde.

Oh Bob, ich weiß es ist viel, aber ich möchte es Steven verständlich machen auf was für Einzelheiten ich so achte..Danke schön!!!

LG Doreen

Bob, wenn Du etwas nicht verstehst das Du es gut übersetzen kannst, dann frag mich vorher und ich versuche ein anderes Wort dafür zu finden!
"Wissen ist Macht" (Heinrich Barth März 1850)
Nüscht wissn, macht aba ooch nüscht! (der Berliner)
Je mehr man weiß, desto weniger weiß man nichts! (Ich)

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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12

Thursday, October 2nd 2008, 12:32pm

Marriage Certificate


Thank you Maternus, I've done my best to translate your message, I think I've understood it...

The only evidence I have that my grandfather was a mariner was from various census records, on which he stated his occupation and also from his marriage certificate to my grandmother. On the marriage certificate my grandfathers occupation is stated as mariner, his fathers name is stated as Henry Woltman and his occupation is stated as master mariner.

Unfortunately I do not have any photo's or any other paperwork.

Steven

elisheva

Unregistered

13

Wednesday, October 15th 2008, 1:57pm

Dear Stephen,

I´ve just stumbled across your entries and would like to comment on a things:

I presume that your great grandfather anglicised his name from Heinrich (literal translation of "Henry") Woltmann (in German, the suffix is "-mann" for surnames, with double "n", rather than one "n" as in English) to Henry Woltman. Heinrich was a fairly common first name over here in the 19th century (and a very beautiful one at that!), with Woltmann I am not sure. The online version of the German Phone directory currently states 551 entries for "Woltmann".

Regarding his (and his father´s) occupation - to my knowledge there are several mariner´s museums across the world, the largest being the "Mariner´s Museum" in the United States, which holds the most complete collection of foreign shipping registers plus historical records and offers research assistance via its website. I have googled around a bit but not yet come across a German equivalent of Lloyd´s Register - although I am almost 100% certain that something such as a "Kapitänsregister" (I think you get the meaning of the word without being fluent in German :-)) must exist. Let me have a thorough think about this and I will get back to you with my ideas.

One last thing: I suggest you post your query in the "Auswanderung" (= emigration) thread if you want to address as many readers as possible -- you´re currently in the newbie section!

I hope the above is a tiny little bit useful - don´t give up - I´m sure we´ll trace your German roots eventually, but it might be a toughie!

Kind regards to Old Blightey from an ex-London student,

elisheva

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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14

Thursday, October 16th 2008, 3:41pm

Thank you so much

Elisheva,

Thank you very much for your post and your message, I had a suspicion that my ancestors first names would have been Heinrich, so thanks for clearing that up.

With regard to the captains register, I agree, I think there must be a German version, so If you do come across it on your travels....and were to let me know I would be eternally greatful :D

Thanks again Elisheva, you've rekindled my hope of finding my German "roots"

Steven

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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15

Thursday, October 16th 2008, 3:45pm

Hello Moderatorin

Would it be possible to move this post to the "Auswanderung" section,

Danke für Ihre Hilfe

Steven

Svenja

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Location: Kanton Luzern, Schweiz; Herkunft: Kanton Zug, Schweiz

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16

Thursday, October 16th 2008, 4:44pm

Hello Steven

I think the "Auswanderung" section ist not the right place for your query.
Because there you should only write if you search traces of your ancestors
in the country where they lived after the emigration. But you are searching
the place in Germany, where your ancestors came from. So I would rather
move your thread to the "Niedersachsen, Hamburg und Bremen" section.

By the way, have you looked at the Website of ancestry.de?
There are listed the Bremer Seeleuteregister 1824-1917
and the Bremer Musterungslisten der Schiffe 1815-1917.
There is mentioned the name Heinrich Woltmann several times.

http://search.ancestry.de/cgi-bin/sse.dl…h&gsln=Woltmann

Best regards
Svenja
Geschichten zu meinen Vorfahren und auf den Spuren der ITEN-Familien in den USA.
http://iten-genealogie.jimdo.com/
Mit Linklisten: Auswanderung, Kriegsschicksale, Deutsche Ostgebiete, jüdische Genealogie.

elisheva

Unregistered

17

Thursday, October 16th 2008, 7:00pm

....ah Svenja, darauf bin ich nicht gekommen, bei ancestry.de nachzusehen, weil da so viel kostenpflichtig ist - aber ich glaube, das ist ein Volltreffer, was Du gefunden hast!

@Steven, I think the link Svenja has found is just the ticket - it contains the seafarers´ register of the City of Bremen and has entries for Heinrich Woltmann. It´s not free of charge but might be just what you are looking for.

Fingers crossed & kind regards,

elisheva

Svenja

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Location: Kanton Luzern, Schweiz; Herkunft: Kanton Zug, Schweiz

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18

Friday, October 17th 2008, 9:20am

Hallo elisheva

Ich konnte die Einträge leider auch nicht genauer anschauen, da ich ebenfalls nicht registriert bin bei ancestry.
Ich verschiebe nun mal diesen Thread nach "Niedersachsen, Hamburg und Bremen". Vielleicht findet sich dort
ein Forenmitglied, dass Vollzugriff auf ancestry.de hat und mal diese Einträge genauer anschauen kann.

Gruss
Svenja
Geschichten zu meinen Vorfahren und auf den Spuren der ITEN-Familien in den USA.
http://iten-genealogie.jimdo.com/
Mit Linklisten: Auswanderung, Kriegsschicksale, Deutsche Ostgebiete, jüdische Genealogie.

elisheva

Unregistered

19

Friday, October 17th 2008, 9:57am

Hallo Svenja,

ich konnte mich bisher auch noch nicht zu einer Mitgliedschaft bei ancestry.de durchringen, da ich von einigen Genealogen gehört hatte, dass manches erst mal ganz verlockend ausschaut, was man bei der (zunächst kostenfreien) Suche entdeckt, sich dann aber herausstellt, dass man mit den Daten, die man dann per Mitgliedschaft erkauft, doch nicht sehr viel weiterkommt. Außerdem schlagen in meinem Fall die ganzen Geburts- und Heirats- und Sterbeurkunden (meine Familie war bis zum Ausbruch des Zweiten Weltkrieges SEHR groß :-)), die ich per Kopie anfordere, mit Kosten zu Buche, die sich hübsch summieren auf die Dauer. Ich drücke jedenfalls die Daumen, dass hier im Forum jemand Vollzugriff auf ancestry.de hat und Steven geholfen werden kann!

Viele Grüße,

elisheva

  • "Steven Derbyshire" started this thread

Location: Liverpool

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20

Thursday, October 23rd 2008, 1:15pm

Elisheva & Svenja

Thanks to both of you for your help, and as you say, maybe some good soul from this forum can help with the information I need, I have an account on Ancestry.co.uk but I can't access the German records...

Thank you very much :D

Steven