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Michael 51

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Friday, June 7th 2013, 2:19am

Officer records ca. 1877

I am searching for an archives or repository where Officer records for the Royal Prussian Army may be kept.
Details: Major and Bataillons-Commandeur F. Zschetzschingck appears in the Thorn, Westprussia Adressbuch in 1876 and appears to have retired with a pension according to the Militär Wochenblatt of Apr. 12, 1877:
"Zschetzschingk, Major und Bats. Kommdr. im Riederschless. Fuss-Art-Reg. Nr. 5, als Oberst-Lt. mit Pension nebst Aussicht auf Anstellung im Civil-dienst und seiner bisher. Uniform,"

I believe that he first appears in the Rang und Quartier Liste in 1851 with the 4th Artillerie Brigade, Royal Prussian Army, as a Second Leutenant.

If Officer records exist, would they detail his career, genealogy data, postings, etc.?

dieter268

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Friday, June 7th 2013, 9:31am

Michael, you can try to write to the german military archive:
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/bundesarchiv/…g/index.html.en
But I would not have to much hope that you would be successful as the old archive in Potsdam burned down in the war 1945 and most of its records were destroyed.

Good luch with your research

Dieter

Jensus

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Friday, June 7th 2013, 8:07pm

Hi Michael,
I found in the Ordensliste (for the Iron-Cross 1870) a captain Maximilian Hermann Ferdinand Zschetzschingck (Feld-Art.-Rgt. Nr.4)
;) Best regards
Jens
Jensus has attached the following file:

Michael 51

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Friday, June 7th 2013, 11:15pm

Thanks to you both, Dieter and Jens. Terrific information.
I have to ask this question- do you think this surname Zschetzschingk sounds like "Chatson"? Reason: my GG Grandfather came to Canada in 1864 with the surname Chatson. He was baptized in Tennstedt, Kr. Langensalza (now Thüringen) in 1834 and given his mother's surname as he was illegitimately born. Father's name not recorded. Baptismal witnesses included an Oberfeuerwerker and Hoboist, who I presume were military personnel. THE 4TH ARTILLERIE BRIGADE (MAGDEBURGISCHES) WAS GARNISONED IN TENNSTEDT IN 1834. In the 1851 Rangliste, S.L. Zschetzschingk was named in the 4e Art. Brigade. 21 other men from the 1834 Rangliste were also named in the 1851 Rangliste. I can only guess that S.L. Zschetzschingk was an unterofficer in 1834 and not named in the Rangliste as were the Hoboist and Oberfeuerwerker who MAY have witnessed for him in the Kirchenbuch for the illegitimate son. ??? The theory fits.
Michael

Michael 51

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Saturday, June 8th 2013, 1:23pm

The Oberfeuerwerker named in the 1834 baptism was Gottfried Franck from Berlin. The Hoboist was Friedrich Krumpholz from Hildesheim. Any military data (if it exists) on these 2 soldiers would be appreciated. Thanks.

Jensus

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Saturday, June 8th 2013, 3:11pm

Hi Michael,
... I have to ask this question- do you think this surname Zschetzschingk sounds like "Chatson"? .... Michael

... hmm - I don't know, but I think it's sound more like "Schatzen/Schätzen" !???

...
Reason: my GG Grandfather came to Canada in 1864 with the surname Chatson. He was baptized in Tennstedt, Kr. Langensalza (now Thüringen) in 1834 and given his mother's surname as he was illegitimately born. Father's name not recorded. Baptismal witnesses included an Oberfeuerwerker and Hoboist, who I presume were military personnel. THE 4TH ARTILLERIE BRIGADE (MAGDEBURGISCHES) WAS GARNISONED IN TENNSTEDT IN 1834. Michael

... that's all one unit (but with different names during the time): see here "Namensgebung": http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/FAR_4#Namensgebung

...
In the 1851 Rangliste, S.L. Zschetzschingk was named in the 4e Art. Brigade. 21 other men from the 1834 Rangliste were also named in the 1851 Rangliste. I can only guess that S.L. Zschetzschingk was an unterofficer in 1834 and not named in the Rangliste as were the Hoboist and Oberfeuerwerker who MAY have witnessed for him in the Kirchenbuch for the illegitimate son. ??? The theory fits. ...

... I'm not sure, but I think this are two different persons!?? Maybe you better ask User Andy.
;) Best regards,
Jens


some ranklist information:
- Rangliste 1850: no entry
- Rangliste 1851: 4. Artillerie-Regiment: S.-L. Zschetzschingck: Ing.-Schule
- Rangliste 1860: Magdeburgische Artillerie-Brigade (Nr.4): P.-L. Zschetzschingck
- Rangliste 1869: Magdeburgische Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr.4: Hptm. Zschetzschingck
- Rangliste 1873: Magdeburgische Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr.4: Maj. Zschetzschingck, Gouvernements & Commandanturen: Wesel (VII. Armee-Corps), Art.-Offiz. vom Platz: Maj. Zschetzschingck, v. Westfälischen Fuß-Art.-R. Nr.7
- Rangliste 1876/77: Niederschlesisches Fuß-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 5, Maj. Zschetzschingck (II. Btl.: Thorn,Graudenz), RAO4, EK2, DA, PC2 (#1), SA3a.KD (#2).
- Rangliste 1878: no entry

#1: Königlich Portugiesischer Christus-Orden Comtur-Kreuz
#2: Königlich Sächsischer Albrechtsorden Ritterkreuz (Kriegs-Dekoration)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Jensus" (Jun 8th 2013, 3:13pm)


Berlin-Bob

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Saturday, June 8th 2013, 3:37pm

Hi Michael,
... I have to ask this question- do you think this surname Zschetzschingk sounds like "Chatson"? .... Michael

... hmm - I don't know, but I think it's sound more like "Schatzen/Schätzen" !???


The anglicisation of european names is a difficult question.
Sometime it just depended on the mood of the immigration officers - if it was too difficult to say or spell, it got simplified.

So if it sounded similar to "Schätzen" but was still too difficult, it could well have been further simplified to Chatson - which does sound very similar to english ears.

This is of course just specualtion, but it does sound plausible.

Bob


ps:

A short story: A day at the immigration docks.

"and the next please ... what's your name ?"
"Zschetzschingk"
"What ? How do you spell it ?"
:
"No way anyone can write that !! Well, it sounded to me like Chatson, so from now on you're Chatson.
Welcome to your new home ... and the next one, please !"
.
suche mehr Ahnen für mein Website http://www.margulies-chronicles.com/index.DE.php (deutsch) / (english)
insbesonders Remenyi (Ruml), Margulies, Morser (Mörzer) in Polen, Ungarn, Slovakei, Österreich, ....

Michael 51

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Saturday, June 8th 2013, 3:56pm

Hi Jens and Bob:

Yes, in the Canadian Ev. Luth Church Books, the name Chatson was spelled as Schätzen. I have spent years on this puzzle and this name Zschetzschingk is the closest match yet.

From 1832 to 1841, the 2nd Reitenden Companie of the 4th Feld Artillerie Brigade were garnisoned in Tennstedt (today Bad Tennstedt in Thüringen). I have 2 witnesses to the 1834 baptism of my GG Grandfather who seem to be military personnel- an Oberfeuerwerker and Hoboist. Perhaps they were witnessing on behalf of another army person. (this is obviously speculation). But S.L. Zschetzschingk, appearing in an 1851 Rang und Quartier Liste in the same 4th Art. Brigade with a S.L. Franck 4 names from him in the same list, makes me very suspicious. I also counted 21 other names from the 1834 RQListe- same 4th Art. Brig.- who also appear in the 1851 list. So I speculate again (I can be proven wrong) that Zschetzschingk, OberFeuerwerker Franck and Hoboist Krumpholz were all Unterofficiers in 1834 (not named in the RQL) and were involved and garnisoned in Tennstedt at that time.

Again- this is an open discussion and I don't mind being proven wrong. But I see too many coincidences with these names and places.

The illegitimate child baptized in 1834 was given his Mother's surname- Becherer. First names- Friedrich Wilhelm. He came to Canada in 1864 as FRANK CHATSON. (Frank- is this derived from the Oberfeuerwerker? Is Chatson/Schätzen actually Zschetzschingk?)

Thanks for your help!

Michael 51

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Sunday, June 9th 2013, 12:13am

Another piece of evidence that helps me:
Burgerbuch der Stadt Erfurt 1826. Zschetzschingk, Maximilian Ferdinand, ev., Kaufmann (Marktstraße 2549), geb. 9.4.1802 in Langensalza; 23.6.

abaus

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Sunday, June 9th 2013, 11:46am

Hello Michael,

Jens has already provided most of the information on your man, Zschetzschingk. He was promoted Seconde Lieutenant on 07.09.1850. Based on this date, I think it is safe to assume he was born about 21 years earlier, say, 1829. (This is a rough estimate!!) Even if that is off by a few years, he would have been far too young to have witnessed (legally) a baptism. There were instances where senior enlisted men became officers, but rarely made it beyond captain, so, I also doubt he witnessed as an enlisted man and later rose to the rank of Major.

Consequently, I think he can be excluded from possible candidates. When he retired from the army, he was brevetted as a Lieutenant Colonel. He died on 30.12.1892.

I searched through my old e-mails and found a few e-mails I sent to you on Oberfeuerwerker Franck a few years back. I've rechecked my files for any new soruces since then, but, unfortunately, I have nothing new to add on this individual.

Andy

Michael 51

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Sunday, June 9th 2013, 9:47pm

Hi Andy:

Thanks for the information. Another question if you don't mind: did your source state where Zschetschingk died in 1892 and what his age was? Perhaps the Maximilian Ferdinand Zschetschingk who was listed as a merchant in the 1826 Erfurt burgerbuch (and born in 1802) was the father of Major Max. Hermann Ferdinand Zschetschingk :?:

I also have two other leads for the Oberfeuerwerker Franck:
1836 Militär Wochenblatt Dec. 10: Oberfeuerwerker Franck vom 1. Bat. 32. Ldw. R. zum Sec. Lt. der Artill. I tracked him in the RQL books to the 4th Ldw. Reg., 3rd Battalion and also with the 1st Art. Brigade until 1861 where he was a Premier Leutenant " b. Absch. bew." -whatever that means. I don't know if he is the same Oberfeuerwerker Franck noted in the 1834 baptism.

Also- one more Oberfeuerwerker Frank, Carl. Oberfeuerwerker des Bombardier- Corps beim 1. Regimente. Promoted to Unterleutenant. Gen. Art. Dir. 25 Nov. 1850 :?:

Perhaps you might have some more details for these men?

Thanks again
Michael