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SwanC

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  • "SwanC" started this thread

Location: Hollywood, Florida, USA

Societies: Maus/Bremen

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1

Friday, September 5th 2014, 7:47pm

Latin transliteration and translation

Too many words missing or wrong to get an accurate translation. Here is my guess on the transliteration of the attached marriage record from Worms cathedral:

20 8bris Matrimonio junnit Dnum Philippum Steiner et pudicam virginem Josepham Adlerin Manheimenses, Testes fuere Dnus Antonius Steiner frater sponsi,

Steinerin soror sponsi, ACC non Fr. Sincenting Bischoft laicuf Old: nostri, in fidem

Fr: D.J: (signature)

+ in sacello nostro
SwanC has attached the following file:

SwanC

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2

Saturday, September 6th 2014, 2:26am

After a few hours of trying, I do get that "+ in sacello nostro " means "died in our chapel", but who does it refer to?

Also was only the bride from Mannheim, or both? I'm not at all sure about the Latin cases.

So maybe it would read - 20 October in marriage were joined Mr. Philipp Steiner and Miss Josepha Adler from the town of Mannheim. Witnesses were Mr. Anton Steiner, brother of the groom, and Miss Steiner, sister of the groom . . . (something about the priest) (somebody) died in our chapel.

Detlef05

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Location: Hamburg

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3

Saturday, September 6th 2014, 5:30pm

Hello SwanC,

Transliteration:
(page 248)
20 8bris Matrimonio junxit
D[omi]num Philippum Steiner et
pudicam virginem Josepham
Adlerin Manheimenses,
Testes fuere D[omin]nus Antonius
Steiner frater sponsi,
Steinerin soror sponsi,
acc non Tr(Fr.?): Vincentius Bischoff
laicus ord(?) nostri, in fidem
Tr(Fr?): D. J: ...
+ in sacello nostro

Translation:
the 20th of October I have wedded
Mister/Sir Phillip Steiner und
the decent virgin/celibate Josepha
Adler (both) from Mannheim,
witnesses were Mister/Sir Anton
Steiner, brother of the groom,
Steiner, sister of the groom
....
buried in our chapel

Notes:
Manheimenses is plural, meaning that both were from Mannheim.
+ in sacello nostro is probably referring to bishop Vincentius (= Vinzenz), but that in not explicit.

Kind regards
Detlef

J. Steffen

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Location: Bielefeld

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4

Saturday, September 6th 2014, 7:17pm

Hi,
I think line 1 should read:
20 8bris Matrimonio junxi X (X in sacello nostro)
= on the 20th of October I wedded in matrimony in our chapel.
So the sign looking like a "+" is really an "X" referring to the words in parenthesis, and nobody has come to any harm in the way of dying or being buried.
Anyway, junxit does not fit in grammatically, but junxi does.
MfG, J. Steffen

SwanC

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5

Saturday, September 6th 2014, 11:25pm

Thanks so much. Would I be correct in assuming that the part beginning with ACC is about the priest and not the married couple?

Detlef05

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6

Sunday, September 7th 2014, 9:48am

Hello,

I agree with J. Steffen: "in sacello nostro" is an infix after junxi. "ACC" is in this case probably the abbreviation of "accessit" meaning "there was called" the priest...

Kind regards
Detlef

J. Steffen

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Location: Bielefeld

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7

Sunday, September 7th 2014, 10:51am

Hello,
it seems to me that instead of "acc" we should read "nec", so we have a double negation "nec non", meaning nothing but "and" (with a certain emphasis).
Yes, and all this refers to the - laic - Fr. = frater Vincentius Bischoff.
MfG, J. Steffen

Detlef05

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8

Sunday, September 7th 2014, 12:18pm

Attempt for discussion:

Transliteration:
nec non Fr[ater] Vincentius Bischoff
laicus ord[dinarii] nostri, in fidem

Translation:
and also brother Vincentius Bischoff
lay brother of our responsible bishop, for confirmation

Note: Vinzenz Bischof is the third witness.

Kind regards
Detlef

J. Steffen

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Location: Bielefeld

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9

Sunday, September 7th 2014, 3:13pm

or
laicus ord[inis] nostri
lay brother of our [religious] order
MfG, J. Steffen