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SwanC

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1

Thursday, January 22nd 2015, 4:35pm

What is "gemuth"?

Can anyone tell me the meaning of the word "gemuth" as it appears at the end of the following sentence?

1. Jürgen Hinrich, Hans Hinrichs' Sohn, Christoph Heinrichs Enkel auf Fanger und Döringshagen, den 1ten Febr. 1741. gemuth.
SwanC has attached the following file:
  • gemuth.jpg (17.5 kB - 15 times downloaded - latest: Jan 29th 2015, 5:30am)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "SwanC" (Jan 22nd 2015, 4:38pm)


2

Thursday, January 22nd 2015, 10:40pm

Hallo Swan,
I think it is another (old) word for vermutlich=probably.. , but I don't know, it's not usual in German language...
regards Jutta
Es ist nicht das Wissen, sondern das Lernen,
nicht das Besitzen, sondern das Erwerben,
nicht das Dasein, sondern das Hinkommen,
was den größten Genuss gewährt.
Carl Friedrich Gauß

Suche FN Wittmann und Angeheiratete-FN Hoffmann/ Oberschlesien-FN Naujock /Ostpreußen

Detlef05

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3

Friday, January 23rd 2015, 10:05am

Hello Chris,

the German word "gemuth" (obviously an adjective) is no more common. The corresopnding German substantive was "Gemuth", in todays German language "Gemüt".
A synonyme of "Gemüt" is "Seele" = in English "soul". A corresponding adjective is "beseelt" = in English: "ensould". That can have a biologic meaning = born alive (in contrast to born dead) or a religious meaning = baptized.

Kind regards
Detlef

SwanC

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4

Friday, January 23rd 2015, 4:29pm

Hello Jutta and Detlef,

Thanks for answering. Since the sentence appears in a list of family members found on the dates given, from that context the "gemuth" might mean "living" or "alive" in English, maybe "lebend" in modern German (says Google)???

Sincerely,

Chris

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "SwanC" (Jan 25th 2015, 5:35pm)


Gisela

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5

Friday, January 23rd 2015, 6:34pm

Hi Chris,
I never heard of or saw this word with the meaning "living" . Without the excact context it is absolutely impossible to find the meaning, neiter in modern german nor in older forms of german language.
"gemuth" as an adjectiv doesn*t seem probable.

Please give us an image of the original document or at least write down exactly the text. Then we'll see.
Gisela
Ein Jegliches Ding hat seine Zeit, und alles Vornehmen unter dem Himmel hat seine Stunde
Derzeitige Lieblingsbaustellen: GRUNER u. LINCKE, Sachsen, ab 1849 auch Schweiz. WURMSER von Schaffoltzheim, Bormio, Schweiz, Elsaß, Heidelberg. STREICHER, Ulm, 16. Jhdt. (Schwenckfelder). WERNBORNER, Hessen u.a.

SwanC

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6

Friday, January 23rd 2015, 7:48pm

The entire entry

Hello all,

Here is the entire sentence with the "gemuth" in it. 2 quick questions, please. Before Regierungs Rath there is "sen6". What is that symbol that looks like a 6? Nothing else seemed right so I thought it is just an abbreviation for senior. Last, I was doing OK with the rest of the translation until I got to the last 10 words. They don't make any sense together with Google. Is "derselben gesamte Hand reserviret" 18th century slang?

German:

1. Jürgen Hinrich, Hans Hinrichs’ Sohn, Christoph Heinrichs Enkel, auf Fanger und Döringshagen, den 1ten. Febr. 1741. gemuth. Dieser hat angezeigt des sen_ Regierungs Rath Christian Siegfrieds drei Söhne in fremden Diensten abwesend waren, deren Vornamen er nicht gewusst, hat derselben gesamte Hand reserviret.

English:

1 Jürgen Heinrich, Hans Hinrichs' son, Christoph Heinrich's grandson, of Fanger and Doeringshagen, the 1st of February 1741 living. He has indicated the senior government councilor Christian Siegfried's three sons were absent in foreign service, whose forenames he did not know the same entire hand reserviret.

Thank you, thank you, thank you,

Chris
SwanC has attached the following file:

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "SwanC" (Jan 25th 2015, 6:01pm)


J. Steffen

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7

Saturday, January 24th 2015, 5:02pm

Hello Chris,
what at first sight may look like "sens6" seems to me just an abbreviated form of "seelig" = selig = deceased, the "6" just being an abbreviation sign.
MfG, J. Steffen

SwanC

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8

Saturday, January 24th 2015, 5:34pm

Hello,

the word "seelig" certainly fits in the context since Christian Siegfried died in 1710. Now only the actual meaning of "gemuth" and "derselben gesamte Hand reserviret" are confusing me. Sorry my German skills are so bad.

Thanks for your help.

Chris

SwanC

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9

Sunday, January 25th 2015, 6:04pm

I added the entire entry and an image of it above. I missed a comma before "hat deselben gesamte Hand reserviret". I hope someone can take another look and give me an idea of the meaning of that end of the sentence, and what the "gemuth" means in this context.

Thanks again,

Chris

Gisela

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10

Sunday, January 25th 2015, 6:50pm



... Is "derselben gesamte Hand reserviret" 18th century slang? ..


No, it is legal jargon.

Hi Chris,
that is not easy for me to explain. I think there is or was similiar legal constructions also in anglo-american laws.
"Gesamthand" meant and means a certain kind of joint ownership rsp. also joint obligations. So e.g. 3 Brothers act as one entity, not als 3 single Persons.

The Situation seems to me like this:

- Father (Regierungsrat) died
- 3 Sons abroad, no possibility to claim their inheritance.
.... several things could happen: strange people could take it unlawfully or it could be taken by the state (so still today, if no heir can be found)
- So Jürgen Heinrich claimed the inheritance in the name of and for the 3 Sons as joint claimants"

Something like that should have happened.
This is a link to Gesamthand. Sorry there is no english version.

And sorry too, I have still no idea about gemuth.
Gisela
Ein Jegliches Ding hat seine Zeit, und alles Vornehmen unter dem Himmel hat seine Stunde
Derzeitige Lieblingsbaustellen: GRUNER u. LINCKE, Sachsen, ab 1849 auch Schweiz. WURMSER von Schaffoltzheim, Bormio, Schweiz, Elsaß, Heidelberg. STREICHER, Ulm, 16. Jhdt. (Schwenckfelder). WERNBORNER, Hessen u.a.

SwanC

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11

Monday, January 26th 2015, 12:25am

Hi Gisela, thanks for answering. It sounds a lot like our "family trust" where the family is like a company and the family members decide together who is the administrator. Maybe that had to do with feudal law where a family was vassals of a higher authority, so property stayed in the family generation after generation, and there was always someone to answer to the higher authority, or the property could be claimed by him.

Sincerely,

Chris

Gisela

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12

Monday, January 26th 2015, 3:46pm

Hi Chris,
please be careful. It causes errors and mistakes if one applies modern law and terms on feudal law and terms. Feudal law is NOT about property but about loan rsp. fiefs.
(regard the difference in modern law between ownership and possession)

"Gesamthand" hasn't anything to do with representation of a family-group. It means all persons are legally regarded as one single person. Each single person outwardly is liable for the entire proberty, possession, claim .......
The legal relations between the single members of the Gesamthand is a different thing.

Btw are you sure, that Jürgen Heinrich is a relative and also a heir of the Regierungsrat? I don't think so, because he doesn' know the names of the sons.
If not he coud possibly be regarded as a representative of the 3sons and is appearing for them, being appointed by whoever. (in this case he does NOT belong to the Gesamthand)

Please have the page behind the link in my last posting translated, and show it to someone who can explain the specialist terms in your language.

Sincerely
Gisela
Ein Jegliches Ding hat seine Zeit, und alles Vornehmen unter dem Himmel hat seine Stunde
Derzeitige Lieblingsbaustellen: GRUNER u. LINCKE, Sachsen, ab 1849 auch Schweiz. WURMSER von Schaffoltzheim, Bormio, Schweiz, Elsaß, Heidelberg. STREICHER, Ulm, 16. Jhdt. (Schwenckfelder). WERNBORNER, Hessen u.a.

SwanC

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13

Wednesday, January 28th 2015, 9:04am

Hi Gisela,
Christian Siegfried is a 3rd cousin to Hans Hinrich (Juergen Hinrich's father) through the male line. Christian Siegfried is married to his first cousin, Anna Elisabeth. Anna Elisabeth's sister, Sophia Juliana, is married to Hans Hinrich's father, so Christian Siegfried would also be an uncle (by marriage) to Hans Hinrich, and a grand-uncle to Juergen Hinrich. I can't imagine how Juergen Hinrich did not know the names of his cousins, except that they were in other (German) countries, and there were originally at least 8 sons of Christian Siegfried, or maybe it's just too confusing.

Thanks for helping.

Sincerely,
Chris