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SwanC

Trainee

  • "SwanC" started this thread

Location: Hollywood, Florida, USA

Societies: Maus/Bremen

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1

Sunday, April 26th 2015, 3:27pm

Why would a family take the coat of arms of their sovereign?

Hello All!

After serving their Mecklenburg lords for generations, a branch of the v. Schwan family turned up in Pomerania using a coat of arms almost identical (to my untrained eye) to the coat of arms of Mecklenburg. The v. Schwan and the noble Svan family in Denmark and Sweden were the same family, if DNA is to be believed, and the first v. Schwan must have arrived around 1185 at the beginning of the Danish hegemony of King Knut 6. Members of the next generation(s) of the v. Schwans appear to have been trusted members of the courts of the lords of Mecklenburg.

Why would a foreigner become so close to the Mecklenburg rulers?

Why would the v. Schwan family give up their iconic swan coat of arms and take the Mecklenburg coat of arms of their sovereign?

Thanks,

Chris

Detlef05

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Location: Hamburg

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2

Sunday, April 26th 2015, 4:43pm

Hello Chris,
Why would a foreigner become so close to the Mecklenburg rulers?
The Dukes of Mecklenburg did not only have connections to the northern countries; Albert III (1338-1412), Duke of Mecklemburg, has also been King of Sweden (1384-1412).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_III._%28Mecklenburg%29
Why would the v. Schwan family give up their iconic swan coat of arms and take the Mecklenburg coat of arms of their sovereign?
Due to your statement Swans have been so-called "Ministeriale" (= member of the serving nobility) of the Dukes. Men of merit got the permission to take over the coat of arms (coa) of the souvereign. It was their decision whether they used it or preferred to keep their historic family-coa. The coa of the Dukes was higher in hierarchie.
http://www.wissen.de/bildwb/das-lehnswes…en-und-unfreien

Kind regards
Detlef

3

Wednesday, September 16th 2015, 9:20am

Hello
to help you I need more info:
1. frow where do you know that they have been Ministriale and to whom ?
2. what is the source of their - as you call it - original arms (swan ?)
3. why do you think their arms look like the Mecklenburg ones ?

† Schwan. (W: In S. 1 R. Stierkopf, zw. dessen Hörnern ein R. Stern schwebt.) (Siebm. V. 1600. Im Jahre 1779 ausgestorben. In Mecklenburg: Schwan 1203. 1283. Der Mecklenb. Geh. Rath Michael Albrecht v S. † 1677 ist in den Frhrstand. erhoben worden. In Pomm.: Döringshagen. (Naugard) 1500. 1778. Fanger. (ibd.) 1610. 1778. Im Braunschweigschen: Blankenburg. Erich Philipp v. S. war 1738 Hannoverscher GenMaj. und Commandant von Münden. In Sachs.: Hans Ernst v. S. 1679 in den Erbreichsritter- und später in den Frhrstand. erhoben. Drehbach 1674. Thum 1674. Venusberg 1674; sämtlich bei Wolkenstein im Erzgebirge. (Ledbur, Adelslexicon 1855)

Regards
rekem
mfG

4

Saturday, September 19th 2015, 4:41pm

Hi,

from an article by von Randow in "Heraldisch-genealogische Blätter für adelige und bürgerliche Geschlechter , 1907" p 25, based upon an article by Salomon Johann Baron von Schwaan, Russia abt 1760.
Wappen der Hessischen Herren v. Schwaan:
In Blau vorwärts sehender Roter Ochsenkopf, darüber grüne Rose.
Kleinod: Grüne Rose zwischen 2 Roten Pfauenfedern.
Decken: Rot-Grün.
Wappen der Herren v. Schwaan aus Pommern: Derselbe Rote Ochsenkopf in Silbernem Felde.
Darüber Roter Stern.
Kleinod: Ochsenkopf mit Stern.
Decken: Rot Silber.
Wappen der Mecklenburg. Herren v. Schwaan:
In Blauem Feld ein natürlicher schwimmender Schwan.
Kleinod: Stehender rechts sehender Schwan mit erhobenem Flügel, im Schnabel drei Rosen (R.S.R.) haltend.
Decke: Rot

Regards,

Thomas

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "rotssaki" (Sep 19th 2015, 4:44pm)


5

Saturday, September 19th 2015, 6:36pm

Hello,
in my huge data-bases on nobility and arms I do not have
a) Schwaan
b) Schwan in Hessia
c) the (grand)dukes of Mecklenburg's arms with the star between the horns

Here the "Russian" (Baltic) Schwan arms from Siebmacher OstN



Please do not forget to answer my earlier questions 1. and 3.
mfG

6

Sunday, September 20th 2015, 2:36pm

Hi,


I think that Chris just aims at the application of a bull's head in both arms.

Just a note: Schwaan = Schwan, as the "von schwan"'s origin is derived from the town near Rostock.

Regards,

Thomas

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "rotssaki" (Sep 20th 2015, 2:39pm)


7

Sunday, September 20th 2015, 3:10pm


Men of merit got the permission to take over the coat of arms (coa) of the souvereign. It was their decision whether they used it or preferred to keep their historic family-coa.
http://www.wissen.de/bildwb/das-lehnswes…en-und-unfreien


Hello Detlef.
Where did you find this statement?
This is new to me

The word "Wappen" is not in above BildWB-Text.
mfG

8

Sunday, September 20th 2015, 3:52pm

Hello Thomas,
thanks for your intervention.

Quoted


I think that Chris just aims at the application of a bull's head in both arms.


there are lots of arms with a bull's head around - in my database some 1.230 entries !

Quoted


Just a note: Schwaan = Schwan, as the "von schwan"'s origin is derived from the town near Rostock.


These Uradel-families do not come from towns, they own a lordship and take the name from it, or they give their name to the new lordship, especially by the locators on Slavic grounds as was the case in Mecklenburg, Pommern and the Uckermark

The Schwans might well have been one of the Slavic natives continuing to live on place together with the locatorss, like many others did and finally become "Germans".

In this case the name would have a Slvic origin and nothing to do with the bird.

Maybe the town near Rostock develloped from this lordship.

By the way we do not have proof as yet that this family originally had the swan in their arms.
mfG

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "rekem" (Sep 20th 2015, 3:56pm)