Dear German friends
I don't know if this is the right place for this message,but I arrived to a dead end.
About my ancestor I know : Johann Friedrich Struve was "Königl.Dänischer Major der Kavallerie" in Glückstadt.His daughter was born in Glückstad in 1715.
Later she married Andreas Rötger,"Justizrath" in Glückstadt.
I don't know if Struve was born in Glückstadt .
Where are the Danish militar archivs? I would like to know something about this Struve family.I know that he was also Erbherr auf Mellen,but I don't know
which place is this.
Thank you so much for your help.
here are some points I'd like to mention about your question, despite of the fact that I'm not an expert for military history at all (but have read some good books about this
- the time period being interesting for you is some kind of difficult because of the Nordic War (1700-1721), that took place too in the Glückstadt region, so there was a lot of troop movement in these years
- Struve is a wide spreaden name in Holstein, so that makes it difficult too, to locate his roots or destinations (by the way, I don't know anything about a place "Mellen")
- as you wrote, J.F. Struve was "Major der Kavallerie in Glückstadt". But there are no cavalry-regiments stationed in Glückstadt at that time: at 1699/1700 it seems, there were only two infantery regiments in Glückstadt (Leibregiment der Königin (queens regiment) and parts of the "Regiment Prinz Karl zu Fuß" ), just one of the four existing royal danish cavalry regiments in Holstein was stationed nearby, the "Leibregiment Dragoner" in Pinneberg and Uetersen, so maybe this could be the right one
- even at the end of this war period in 1721, there is only infantery and artillery in Glückstadt ("Regiment zu Fuß Kragh" and parts of the "Holsteinisches Artilleriekorps"; again only smaller parts of the "Leibregiment Dragoner" are still in Pinneberg, Uetersen and Wedel
- to make it more difficult, between 1702 and 1709 several danish cavalry regiments went to Dutch and British service
- in summer 1699 all in all there were 14 cavalry regiments in the danish troops, only five of them where not taken from the kingdom (Söldner), so there is a good possibility of nearly 66% that your Major Struve was raised up in Denmark area (including Holstein)
- having in mind the fact that there were no cavalry regiments stationed in Glückstadt it could be possible, that he was no longer in service by this time in Glückstadt and was still retired ? That could lead to the conclusion, that he was a little bit older as you maybe think by now?
most of the military archives of the royal danish troops of this period are in the "Reichsarchiv/Militärarchiv"in Copenhagen, some smaller parts in the "Landesarchiv Schleswig-Holstein" in Schleswig. But I read about a book that would fit most for your questions, maybe you find a way to get it in reach, unfortunately I haven't.
It's the danish written book "Danske og Norske officerer 1648-1814" written by J.W. Hirsch in 1922, that is said to include all officers of the danish and norwegian troops in this period including many from Germany and Scheswig-Holstein with lifefacts and military data. The original (12 Books with all officers in alphabetical order) is said to be located in the "Königliche Bibliothek" in Copenhagen and fotocopys of it in the reading room of the Reichsarchiv in Copenhagen.
So maybe some of this may help
Many sunday greetings to Brazil
it`s me again.
I found another book hint for your search.
Otto Vaupell wrote in 1876 a danish book "Den danske haers historie til nutiden..." The experts say, it is not the best source for the theme because of some mistakes, but...
In Germany you can get online access (archive.org) only on Band 2. But in its registry there is mentioned your "Major J.F. Struve" who can be found in Band 1.
Unfortunately, the online access through "google books" to this "Band 1" is not allowed from a german server, but maybe from a brazilian (as it is from an american...)
This could be the easiest way to get at least nearer information about his military career and units and so on for further research. Don't worry about the danish language of the book. If you get a page there will be found a person here who can translate. I looked up Band 2 and found it not difficult to understand most of the content, with my german and english knowledge.
It was a pleasure to find your message in this sunday afternoon !
You have mentioned some important points.J.F.Struve 's daughter,Elisabeth Sophie,was born in Glückstadt,but Struve probably was not in Glückstadt,but near by.
At that time (1715) he could be retired .Yes,it is a possibility...
Do you think Struve could be Danish?Is it normal a German be a danish oficer?
The books you mentioned were filmed by the Mormons.I'll ask them.Unfortunately Copenhagen is too far..I'd like so much going to Denmark.I have many Danish ancestors.My Danish ancestor Heinrich Lorenz Gullann was Oberkrigskomissair and fought in Glückstadt siege in 1814.
I found Vaupell's book in Archiv.org. but coudn't find my Struve. Probably it was not the right band.
Thank you so much much for your interesting explanation and suggestions! It was exactly what I was looking for.
Herzlichen Grüsse aus Brasilien
Hallo aus Kiel,
leider muss ich auf deutsch antworten.
GULLMANN, von, Heinrich Lorenz,
geb. 08.03.1781 / + 1864
seit 1803 Artillerie- und Zeughauslieutnant bei dem
königl. Arsenal zu Glückstadt
seit 1817 Zeughausverwalter in Rendsburg
seit 1825 Oberkriegskommissar.
Dieser hat u.a. folgende Schrift[en] herausgegeben:
Herausgeben: GULLANN, H.L. v.,
(Hrsg.) Liedersammlung fürgesellige Vereine. (Mit besonderer Rücksicht auf geschlossene Gesellschaften in den Herzogthümern Schleswig, Holstein und
Rendsburg, J. G. F. Wendell, 1824.12, 294 S. Bedruckter OPpbd (etwas bestoßen u. stellenw. ausgeblichen, wenige Fleckchen, m. Rsign. u. St. verso Titel).
I,413; Alberti 2,I,650.- Der Leutnant Heinrich Lorenz Gullann (1781 - 1864) stellte in dieser Sammlung Tugendlieder, Tabaks-, Tanz-, Punsch-
und Zechlieder zusammen, Widmungsweisen (für Vaterland, Landesmutter und -vater), Jahresend- und -anfangslieder, Aufmunterungslieder, aber auch
ein Bischofslied. Ein zweiter Teil, der u.a. Forst-, Jagd, Kriegs- und akademische Lieder enthalten sollte, ist wohl nicht erschienen.
Schlagwörter: 19th century Literature; Anthologien vor 1900; Anthologies
Do you think Struve could be Danish?Is it normal a German be a danish oficer..??..
Hier darf man nicht vergessen, das sich Schleswig-Holstein in zwei Verwaltungsgebiete gliederte:
a.) der königl. Anteil, zu Dänemark
b.) der herzgl. Anteil
Somit ist es nicht ungewöhnlich, deutsche Namen [Offiziere, Soldaten] in den Streitkräften zu finden.
Ggf. finden sich noch einige Angaben in den dänischen Kirchenbüchern, die man Online [kostenfrei]
Mit den besten Grüssen von der Kieler-Förde
Thank you for the information you gave me.
The Holstein region is surely a very complicated matter.Unfortunately the archives,including Glückstadt, don't have the parish registers for the years
that interest me.
Danke.Grüsse aus Brasilien.
Hallo von der Kieler-Förde,
hier noch zwei interessante Adressen, wo man fündig werden könnte:
Tel.: 04621 - 8618-00
Findbuch der Bestände Abt. 57 bis Abt. 62
Veröffentlichungen des Landesarchivs Schleswig-Holstein, Band 103, 2012
Hier ist u.a. der Familienname RÖTGER verzeichnet.
Hier wird man Dir gewiss weitere Auskünfte erteilen können.
Wie hier schon geschrieben, kommt noch das Reisarchiv in Kopenhagen
in betracht, hier evtl. die Unterlagen der Deutschen Kanzlei in Kopenhagen.
DK-1218 Kopenhagen KTelefon: +45 33 92 33 10
Fax: +45 33 15 32 39
Hier wird man Dich aber wohl an einen "Freien Mitarbeiter" verweisen, da das
Reichsarchiv keine Suchaufträge durchführt. Dann solltest du unbedingt die
Kosten abklären, damit keine unliebsamen Überraschungen eintreten.
Mit den besten Grüssen nach Brasilien
Thank you for the suggestions and adresses. I have already written to Rendsburg and Glückstadt and have obtained many documents.
Now I'll write to those you suggested me.
Danke. Herzlichen Grüsse aus São Paulo,Brasilien.
That's a real quiz,specially for my friend Thomas...
A Danish friend sent an entry for Johann Friedrich Struse.(not Struve) from Hirsh 's Danske og Norske Oficerer. I am absolutely sure that the name is Struve,from documents of his daughter but I would like to understand this entry,since this is the only Johann Friedrich of the list.
"Korud? :FR% Joachim Dewitz Rytter Regiment i engelsk-hole Sold :Brabrand 30-8-1701 Holstein Rytter Regiment til 1704 Rit? Brockdorffs Kyrase Regiment (hjemme i Danmark) 25-5-1710. Regimentet blev oplost paa grund dets Forhold i Slaget ved Ga?asch 20-12-1712. Afsked med Majors ???7-6-1713 (RN 12-11-1713)"
Could this one be my Struve? Brockdorff is a place owned by Struve's grandson, Johann Friedrich Rötger.
Mit freundlichen grüssen
first of all I´m with you – J.F. Struse has to be your Struve.
The old written form of „v“ is often wrongly read as a modern
„s“. The additional information you have about your ancestor,
makes it most likely to me, that the mentioned J.F. Struse is your
Struve. The name "Struse" makes no sense in this northern German context.
Though I haven`t any Danish language experience, with a little
help from my friend, the internet translator and my military books,
the text seems to me as Struves military career as following
(although it would help if you were able to give a photo of the
Struve started his military career in the „Joachim Dewitz
Regiment“. The „Dewitz-Kürassiere“ were founded as a new
Regiment in 1701 as „Dithmarschen-Cavallry-Regiment“, later known
as „Dewitz“ despite their future leading officer Joachim Dewitz
from 1709 on. As I mentioned before, some of the danish regiments
were sold to British or Dutch service. So it´s likely that Struve
first went with his regiment in English Service and was located in
Brabant till or from 30-8-1701 on. Brabant as part of the southern
Dutch area was a hot spot in this years in political Europe (Spanish wars). Denmark
was not really involved in the beginning of the later called Nordic
war, so they were able to sell regiments to their allies. I read the
above danish text, that Struve then went into the service of the
„Holstein Reuter (Cavallry) Regiment till 1704 after this early
Brabant period. The „Holstein Regiment“ was located home in
Danmark (which means Holstein region in this context). Then he took
service in the „Brockdorff Kürassier Regiment“ from 25-5-1710
on, that was founded in this year in Holstein region, because Danmark
was now involved hardly in the Nordic Wars and the bilateral war
against Sweden began. The „Brockdorff Regiment“ was named by the
leading officer at this time, who was a member of the aristocratic
family „Brockdorff“. With this regiment Struve fought in the
famous battle of Gadebusch (western Mecklenburg region) on
20-12-1712. The Swedish won, Denmark had to take a great retreat from
further war campaigns for a longer period of time. The
Brockdorff-Regiment was dissolved in 1713 in reaction of the lost
battle of Gadebusch. So Struve went of military service and took his
exit from the troops with the date 7-6-1713 in the last military rank
as a Major. All in all, it seems, that J.F. Struve had a roundabout
12-year-military career in the Danish cavallry.
Thank you for your explanation ! I've read about Dewitz and Brockdorff,as well as the battle of Gadebusch.
I made a huge mistake.The place owned by my ancestor Johann Friedrich Rötger, Struve's grandson, was Bekdorf,near Itzehoe.(Topographie Holstein 1841-Johannes von Schröder).
Gruss aus Brasilien
as I forgot to write an interesting background fact.
The commanding language in the whole Danish army was "German" till 1772. Most of the officers were "Germans", mostly from aristocratic families all over northern Germany, not only Holstein or Schleswig area. The most important school where the officers were educated was in Rendsburg in Holstein. The commanding language in the Danish navy was "Danish" instead.
For me it`s obvious that J.F Struve was a german speaking person with his cultural background in Holstein, that's what the family name "Struve" stands for. It's obviously not a typical Danish family name.
I have no experience in the history of the military school in Rendsburg or research on that, but maybe there is a small chance, that you find more information about the starting of his career in studying material on the officer school in Rendsburg. Maybe there are lists about the young officers before 1700 ???
Thank you for your kindness and interesting suggestions! Perhaps the Rigsarkiv in Copenhagen has some information about my ancestor in Rendsburg...Shall I mention a military school ?
I would like so much to know something about his family but the archives in Glückstadt and Rendsburg have no documents previous to 1700. And there is this
misterious place Mellen that nobody knows where it is... Well,never give up...
Saudações calorosas do Brasil !
Yes ! Brokstedt ,you were absolutely right!
Johann Friedrich Strüve ( ! ) is the same Johann Friedrich Struse !
The Rigsarkivet put on line hundreds of documents ,including Hirsch's Danske og Norske Officerer, and also Berlien's Danske og Norske Officerer.
And there he is :Strüve Johann Friedrich (also written Struse ).He started his career the same day 30-8-1701 .So,it is the same person.Unfortunately
it is very difficult to read.I'll try to send the page.
I think you will find these documents very interesting.
The link to Struve is https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser? bsid=198624#198624,37643354
Saudações do Brasil
sorry, but the link doesn't work - would you try again?
You can also explain to me the way to the document.
It seems the site doesn't let you share or send the link.
This is a link to the whole page of the Arkivalieronline:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/other/index/22 Then you go to Berlien Danske og Norske Officerer -STE-STO -page 155
Thank you so much.
so here's what I read of the mostly german written text (and translated in English):
"Strüve, Johann Friedrich, Cornet 30. Aug. 1701 im geworbenen
oldenburgischen – seit 1700 holsteinischen – Regimente
Cavallerie, 4. Companie, der unter Pre-Lieut Carl Rudolph Herzog v.
Württemberg-Neustadt im Oct 1710 nach Holland gesandten
Hilfstruppen, Octbr. 1710 – 6te Compagnie, 7. Octbr 1702.
Afgaant 1764 (Milit. Etat far 1704 – G.A.)"
Strüve, Johann Friedrich, Cornet (military rank - officer apprentice - "Fähnrich" or "Fahnenjunker in German language) 30. Aug 1701 in
the enlisted Oldenburg (Oldenburg was part of the Danish empire in these years, like Holstein too) Cavalry Regiment – named Holsteinish since
1700 - 4th Comp, under the command of Prem.-Lieut. Carl
Rudolph Duke of Württemberg.Neustadt, in Oct 1710 sent to Holland
(Netherlands - „the Spanish wars“) as auxiliary troops, Oct 1710
- 6th Comp., 7. Oct 1702
Afgaant 1764 (must be Danish: went off) – Because the year date
1764 makes no sense in connection with the person Strüve it makes
sense to me that this is an information about either the exit of the
Regiment as a whole or it is an internal bureaucratic date, on which the book left
the Regiment and went to a central archive.
In addition to all that, I think, that the family name that J.F. used for himself is still "Struve" (not Strüve). Struve is the most known form (sometimes Strufe as well) for this wide spreaden name in northern Germany. But in former times, they wrote an "u" with a horizontal bar above (to make clear the difference to "n" for example).In some cases it was (and still is nowadays) read as a "ü", especially by persons who are not too familiar with that like Scandinavians who have a lot of such further combinations and thought it was part of the correct letter, but it isn't. I think, it's obvious, that in this case, a danish speaking and thinking military bueraucratic person originally wrote down "Strüve" and so this form found its "way to eternity". For your further work I would suggest to use the form, you found in the church books as the best way. But it's absolutely clear, that it's the same person.
A very special thank for your translation and comments ! If it weren't for your suggestion I should never have found Struve.
There an additional difficulty in finding further information.In Hirsch book he is also called Struffer...
The german church books have very little information.You should see a beautiful portuguese death register with all the circunstances of the
death and sometimes the last illness that God has given. The baptisms have information about four generations.
But my german ancestors are far more interesting.